Since when did Google Video have pirate movies?

Talk about Myth, other games and anything else (within the rules)

Postby Miltiades » Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:13 pm

Ooh, fun topic.

I'd have to agree with VR regarding the morality of downloading music. But downloading a few songs from p2p clients is hardly what I would consider one of the world's top evils.

Personally, I seriously hope the record industry falls flat on its face. I am disgusted by the RIAA's behavior: suing single mothers and college students and collecting "settlement payments." I think there's been a total of 2 actual court cases. They have even stated publicly that students should drop out of school if necessary in order to pay their settlement fees. They need to realize that the CD album, like the vinyl of the 70's (sorry VR :) and the casette tapes of the 80's, is doomed.

What Apple has done with iTunes is a step in the right direction. But I HATE DRM and IP. If I buy something, then it's mine. It's not still yours and you sell me the rights to do particular things with it. I really want a store that sells music in mp3 or flac formats that I can burn to cd or dvd and play at work, in my car, etc. Will I ever see a store like this? I think not.
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Postby vinylrake » Tue May 02, 2006 12:45 pm

Miltiades Wrote:Ooh, fun topic.
I'd have to agree with VR regarding the morality of downloading music. But downloading a few songs from p2p clients is hardly what I would consider one of the world's top evils.

Completely right. The morality is quite clear, but it isn't even on my top 10 list of the world's top evils. Way before that on my list would be Disco music, Corduroy Leisure suits and people who line up at the drive thru at the local donut shop and stick out into the road blocking traffic. That said, I know enough about how the peer-to-peer software works to know that there is really no way to be completely anonymous when downloading illegal copyrighted material so I don't do it. Chances are relatively low that _I_ would be the one caught, but I don't like court and legal matters and even more do I hate paying fines so I find lots of legally free stuff to listen to.

I have mixed feelings about the recording industry. On the one hand, there are greedy corporations exploiting musicians in a huge profit making for the company machines, and then there are musicians looking for ways to sell their product. And there are smaller or more ethical record labels that don't have the huge corporate overhead who provide valuable services to musicians.

The RIAA of course should burn in hell, and I've thought so since they lobbied for adding a tax to all blank cassettes to reimburse them for pirated losses. So I buy a cassette to record bird sounds or my latest rock opera and should pay a fee to the RIAA because someone ELSE pirated the latest Air Supply release? Screw the RIAA. Seriously. With a burning screw.

Miltiades Wrote:settlement fees. They need to realize that the CD album, like the vinyl of the 70's (sorry VR :) and the casette tapes of the 80's, is doomed.


No problem, the vinyl of the 70's is long gone. ;)

The CD album may be doomed, but I am not as sure it will be very soon. Vinyl predated the 70's (well technically I don't know when records became 'vinyl' but at some point I know they were a different plastic mix but plastic records lasted what 50+ years?) but the concept of an 'album' has remained - vinyl was just one delivery medium. 8-tracks (how could you forget them?) and cassettes were other delivery mechanisms for albums, as is a CD. Unless music release and purchasing habits change drastically I think the concept of the album will be around - and I think for the foreseeable future there will still a market for a physical incarnation of an 'album'. CDs will eventually get replaced as album delivery medium - the miniDisc looked like a good contender at first but other than DVDs there doesn't seem to be anything near reaching critical mass for replacing CDs, so I think some physical medium will eventually take it's place, but I am not holding my breath. I have a hard time seeing ALL physical music recordings dissapearing anytime in the next 20 years or so.

If I buy something, then it's mine. It's not still yours and you sell me the rights to do particular things with it.


I completely agree. Those people should all burn in hell too. Apple included. Seriously. I blame Microsoft for starting it all with those ridiculous End User License Agreements which basically said you were only purchasing the right to "run" the software but the software itself remained Microsoft's and if they told you to, you had to remove it from your machine. If I buy a song, I should be able to listen to it as often as I want on as many machines as I own. If I own 3 desktops, 2 laptops, and 2 MP3 players I should be able to play the song on all of those machines, I should also be able to burn it to CD so I can play it in my car.
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Postby Baak » Tue May 02, 2006 1:14 pm

lol! With a burning screw! :D

vinylrake Wrote:I blame Microsoft for starting it all with those ridiculous End User License Agreements which basically said you were only purchasing the right to "run" the software but the software itself remained Microsoft's and if they told you to, you had to remove it from your machine.

I think everything like this has evolved from the strict reliance on written law - and therefore lawyers - to spell out every single little frickin' detail lest someone try to take advantage of what is not included (which is impossible - hence keeping lawyers employed forever), while ignoring common sense completely. Once "common sense" became less relied upon and the word of law was everything, then people started figuring out "well, if subparagraph B didn't include a comma there then obviously the whole paragraph doesn't apply to blah blah blah".

You can see this everywhere, but watching the evolution of the EULA you can see how they've gone from one paragraph to one page of really small print.

The origin of the EULA came from someone way back in the 80's declaring that since they purchased a copy of the software they owned the software itself (yeah, that's common sense - NOT) - probably because the code was included in the copy. Thus ever since you are only buying a license to use the software. I don't agree that the software owner has the right to say you must remove the software at some point - that's like a publisher saying they have the right to force you to return/destroy the book even though you purchased it - makes no sense. This is probably a natural evolution from the fact that they went with a "license" to use a copy rather than owning a copy to run without any other rights (such as copyrights). Licenses are one way people keep control.

I could never understand why it wasn't treated like a book from the get-go. You buy a copy of a book, but you don't own the copyright (duh - really?). Very simple. Same with music: you buy a copy of the music but you don't own the copyright. Why this wasn't the same with software is a mystery to me.

From there it seems to me that you could make as many copies of your copy as you like for personal use. I see nothing wrong with making a casette copy of a CD to play in your car, or making a CD copy of a CD to play in your car. A slight fine-line appears in my mind if you have made multiple copies that are being used at the same time - to me this is duplicating rather than making copies for convenience (where you could be using the one original).

With software I can understand where MS could expect you to but two copies of Word if you are using them on two machines, BUT to me this should only be expected if you use the software simultaneously (i.e. you and your child are both using Word at the same time). If one person only uses it once in a blue moon, what's the difference between person B using it while person A doesn't and removing/installing it on person B's computer and then removing/installing it back to person A's? As long as the use is not simultaneous, then it acts like one copy - just like passing a book back and forth between two people.

In a corporate environment it makes sense to me to purchase licenses (copies) for X number of "seats" (100 copies can be used at the same time, etc.) - otherwise selling one copy for 100 employees is unfair to the software publisher. In this case it's just like buying 100 copies of a book to distribute for use within the company.

Seems very cut and dry to me.
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Postby vinylrake » Tue May 02, 2006 3:01 pm

Baak Wrote: I think everything like this has evolved from the strict reliance on written law - and therefore lawyers - to spell out every single little frickin' detail lest someone try to take advantage of what is not included (which is impossible - hence keeping lawyers employed forever), while ignoring common sense completely.

The road to Hell is paved with Lawyers. Ok, actually it isn't, but there a few I wouldn't mind stepping on on my way down.

Baak Wrote: I could never understand why it wasn't treated like a book from the get-go. You buy a copy of a book, but you don't own the copyright (duh - really?). Very simple. Same with music: you buy a copy of the music but you don't own the copyright. Why this wasn't the same with software is a mystery to me.

It's piracy fears. It's pretty involved - at least time consuming and before so many people had access to free copiers; expensive - to make a copy of a book, (Though I have actually done it on more than one occassion) - it's WAY easier to copy a record or CD, even easier to copy digital objects like software or non-Digital-Rights-protected audio/video files.

None of the protection schemes are foolproof (milt, you can convert your iTunes audio to MP3s if you really want to) they just want to put enough hurdles in place to keep the lazy pirates from copying things. If it's easier to just click and buy the damn thing lazy potential pirates aren't going to bother to steal it. Same with the economical pirates, as long as the price isn't too high it won't be worth the time and effort to bootleg something, they'll just buy it instead.

Baak Wrote: A slight fine-line appears in my mind if you have made multiple copies that are being used at the same time - to me this is duplicating rather than making copies for convenience (where you could be using the one original).

What if I want to have the same CDs playing in 3 different rooms in my house and I am the only one home? Or what if I have it playing in my house, leave the CD player on then pop a backup copy into my car's CD player?

Baak Wrote:With software I can understand where MS could expect you to but two copies of Word if you are using them on two machines, BUT to me this should only be expected if you use the software simultaneously

For a work environment I think this is good where each worker using a product concurrently adds to a license count, but I think there should be some sort of "fair use" clause for home software use. e.g. If I purchase a software package and want to load it onto a computer for one of my kids to use, I don't think I should have to have a 2-user site license. I think it should be more commonsense based. Actually I just checked MS Office because I wanted to use that as a bad example and found that they have a fairly reasonable teacher-student version of Office available for $150 which allows it to be installed on up to 3 computers in the same household (reasonable). BUT if you aren't a student or educator you will pay $350+ for the same software for only one user license (unreasonable).
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Postby Two Saks » Tue May 02, 2006 4:25 pm

The record industry should burn in hell - Absolutely!
Is Piracy stealing - Absolutely!

I see both being true and mutually exclusive. I expect the vast majority of people to take what they can get, especially when "everyone else" is doing it and there is a relatively low risk of consequence. Nothing new here. I also expect producers to protect their interests, especially those producers who should burn in hell. :) Ideally, if they could find a way to protect copying of products with technology - great. No more litigation. But that's a cat and mouse game they probably feel is a losing proposition in the end, at least for the <insert Gollum voice> preccccious bottom line. So what other choice do producers have, (given the greedy bastards they are, or at least what so many say they are)? Do we really expect them to sell products which can be mass reproduced without them recieving any $$$$ for them? They may be evil but they are not stupid. They enforce the law enough to make examples. Or make others pick up the cost in a brute force and unfair manner (like VR's tape example). They can't catch all those who cheat so they pass a premium to everybody else en mass to cover the gap. Nothing new here either - it's going on everywhere unfortunatly. I believe people getting prosecuted are very unlucky, but I don't have much sympathy for them (other than they being very unlucky). Big difference, at least to me. It's akin to not having any sympathy for myself for getting caught speeding, but realizing I was very unlucky because I was the one (of thousands that day) who got nailed. Truthfully, I prefer to live in a society that DOES catch speeders - even if it's me - because it's for the betterment of all. To some degree I carry that same philosophy about piracy. Protecting interests in the market place is a cornerstone, even for the greedy bastards because not all interests are those of the greedy bastards. Without it things can get very very chaotic.

And about CD's being on the way out...sure..whatever. Doesn't matter what technology wins, the RIAA or Apple or whomever will own it in the end and attempt to dictate a distribution on their terms. So much focus on the delivery system, understandably, it changes, it's cool, it's fresh, it's what gets people to rush out to the stores and buy a newer version of the same old...but at the top not much changes at all. My solution - learn an instrument and make your own music. And people have the nerve to call me a cynic.
:saywhat:

Oh yeah - I hope the concept of CD's/albums never go away! I love the flow of several songs, the feel of an entire work by an artist or group. I do like the ability to pluck out a song here and there of course, but keep those song sets coming to pluck from.
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Postby Monstertool » Tue May 02, 2006 7:38 pm

Hopefully they don't get ahold of me, i'm a huge theif.
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Postby Two Saks » Tue May 02, 2006 8:44 pm

lol MT!! For you buddy, I'd go on the run with ya, fight'n the law...I've seen the way you play Body Count :badgrin:
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Postby Baak » Tue May 02, 2006 9:06 pm

vinylrake Wrote:What if I want to have the same CDs playing in 3 different rooms in my house and I am the only one home? Or what if I have it playing in my house, leave the CD player on then pop a backup copy into my car's CD player?

One listener in both cases, which to me would be just fine. What I was getting at earlier was more simultaneous experiencers than purchases - note I say purchases and not purchasers.

Since a couple buying a CD and then making a copy so they both can listen simultaneously would violate the concept that only one CD was originally purchased. They should be able to listen to the two CD's at alternate times - just not one person listening to the original while the other listens to the copy simultaneously.

This of course begs the question of: well what if my friend(s) listen to my CD while I'm listening? Is this ok because it's intermittent or because it's "private listening" (i.e. not broadcast for public consumption - and no, I'm not talking about playing it in your car with the windows rolled down)?

Heh - where's my lawyer...

And VR: I totally agree that the cost of software such as MS should be the student amount for general consumption and lower for students. I think they price their software high enough that it acts as an incentive for piracy. If it were reasonably priced they'd have less piracy imo.
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Postby Two Saks » Tue May 02, 2006 9:46 pm

Very cool discussion...like planes flying at different altitudes getting a different look at the ground... =D>
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Postby vinylrake » Thu May 04, 2006 6:35 am

Baak Wrote:Since a couple buying a CD and then making a copy so they both can listen simultaneously would violate the concept that only one CD was originally purchased....


As you noted, the problem with that concept is the artificial(?) linkage between one purchase one listen(er). e.g. if it's ok for one person to buy a CD and for multiple people to listen to that music at the same time (say I am having a party and I play the CD) then why isn't it ok for 2 people to listen to that same music at the same time if they aren't geographically close? [what a great breakup line, "Honey, I feel like we are different continents and we've just drifted apart..."]

So it appears there is some implied/expected relationship between geographical proximity and accepted use of a music product.

Baak Wrote:And VR: I totally agree that the cost of software such as MS should be the student amount for general consumption and lower for students. I think they price their software high enough that it acts as an incentive for piracy. If it were reasonably priced they'd have less piracy imo.

One of the most reasonable software licenses I have seen was from one of the high end (I am talking (at the time) $10,000 per user license high end) 3D graphics programs (Maya). They released a version for FREE for students or anyone who wanted to try out their software that was 100% functional, the ONLY limitation was that all images saved with the software carried a Maya "watermark" on it, The free version allowed anyone to learn their software, and practice on it, and let schools teach the software - withOUT anyone having to invest $10k (especially graphic arts students). That way only professional graphics companies or individuals who wanted/needed to actually produce saleable non-watermarked images had to purchase the software.

Seemed like a win-win solution to me since at 10K the software was way beyond normal humans' budgets, and I imagine that giving a free copy away must have reduced the piracy rate on such highly coveted but pricey software immensely.
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